Faith Development Theory
Back when I first grasped some implications of the theory of evolution, I wrote down some questions:
- Does God fit into this?
- If not, then what?
- If so, then how?
- What about sin?
- What is sin?
- What in the Bible is true?
- Is Jesus even necessary?
- What about the Sabbath?
One of the helpful resources I've read is a chapter in Creation Reconsidered: Scientific, Biblical, and Theological Perspectives by Graeme Sharrock (the chapter, not the entire book) called "Faith Development in a Scientific Culture" in which Sharrock briefly discusses faith development theory and describes the stages of faith development (based on James Fowler's model) as it relates to the Genesis creation story. Here I am going to quote stages three and four.
Stage Three: Synthetic-Conventional Faith—With the onset of adolescence and the arrival of abstract thinking, a world of possibilities opens up that forces a crisis in identity. A person's experience of the world now extends beyond the family to peers, media, employment, and societal groupings. Faith must provide a coherent orientation amid a network of offers, synthesize values and information, and lay a basis for a new self-consciousness. Stage Three faith typically structures the environment in interpersonal terms; it is strongly conformist in that it is attuned to the expectations of others, seeking identity and affirmation yet without the ability to maintain autonomous judgment or an independent perspective. Beliefs and values are tacitly held—a person dwells within them without being able to objectify them for examination—and in a sense is unaware of having them. Dependence on external authorities for the synthesis of a personal perspective is combined with abstract reasoning. Hence, many teens are attracted to idealistic movements and ideas that seem to offer security and absolutes. The authority of parents may be replaced by that of teachers or religious figures or rock singers. The young person may be well aware of this shift yet be unaware that his or her values are still being determined and delivered by others.
Adventist teens will usually accept the literal interpretation of Genesis if that is what is taught to them by trusted authorities. They become "creationists" just as their public school counterparts become "evolutionists." Interest in doctrines as abstractions from the Bible exists in a few intellectually oriented teens, as absolutist teachings give one a sense of identity within an ideological system.
Stage Four: Individuative-Reflective Faith—The synthesis achieved in Stage Three is only relatively stable and can be threatened by knowledge from outside influences or by crisis experiences. This can happen when the person perceives a clash between authorities and feels the need for independent evaluation. Encounters with other cultures or radically different ideologies (leaving home, attending university, traveling abroad); personal tragedy such as prolonged illness, death of a close friend, marriage, or divorce; collapse of public criteria for morality (Watergate) or a sense of the implausibility of one's childhood beliefs in wider society—all these contribute to the breakdown of Stage Three faith and lead one to reflect upon one's own beliefs, values, and commitments. In late adolescence, a young man or woman is developmentally ready to begin to take seriously the burden of responsibility for his or her own lifestyle and worldview. The transition to Stage Four is underway when unavoidable tensions with one's upbringing exert themselves and doubt concerning the claims of previously unquestioned authorities arises. It is time to begin to "think for oneself."I see myself as having largely moved from Stage Three to Stage Four, with hints of Stage Five. But your eyes are tired. You may rest until I write more tomorrow.
Stage Four most appropriately forms in young adulthood, but many adults do not construct it until their thirties, forties, or fifties, if at all. There is a double development: the self, once stable in its identity and faith structure shared by an interpersonal group, now claims an identity no longer defined by a group. The Stage Four person now seeks order with a new set of questions: How do I know that is true? (asking for method of verification), and What does it mean? (seeking understanding). Stage Four faith "demythologizes" the tacit faith of Stage Three with an acute sense of distance between the past and the present. Conceptual meanings replace conventional definitions as reason replaces external authorities in the personality. Some, especially those undergoing secular education, may find themselves afloat on a sea of ambiguity as all authorities fade, and they may possibly reject altogether the religion of previous years.
In this stage, belief in creationism may be questioned along with other beliefs. For the first time, a student may entertain and investigate alternative views about the origin and history of life. For many, these new views will appear contradictory and seem to require an either/or choice. Faith struggles with the need for certainty as it slowly becomes a personal choice. Later in Stage Four, if growth continues, the logic of clear distinctions and abstract concepts steadily fails to make sense of the more complex adult world, and one feels the need to press toward a more multi-leveled approach to life. Influences from science, philosophy, and certain theologies may suggest not only different ways of putting the puzzle of religion and science together, but also alternative ways of constructing one's identity that do not require a neat fit. Restless with the self-images and uncertainties of this relativistic stage, the Stage Four person may become disillusioned with his or her own compromises and experience a gnawing to re-appropriate meaningful symbols from childhood.
27 comments:
"Since they cannot look at, examine, or consider supernatural causes, science cannot consider creation as a plausible alternative to evolution."
B: Science will look at supernatural causes. The only thing science would need is evidence of such phenomena. Where is it?
There is a difference between methodological naturalism and metaphysical naturalism.
Believers assume, i do not know why, that science is biased because it reject supernaturalism due to a illogical attachment to the material world. That is not the case.
Science does not negate the supernatural. Science is about evidence, about what we can prove. That is why we can have good and solid christian scientists, for example.
Assuming that science precludes the supernatural by fiat is not correct. It is not about competing world views. It is about evidence, or in he case of creationism, the lack of thereof.
For what it's worth, my answers to your questions:
1. No.
2. Then we must revise our probability estimate of God's existence downward.
3. N/A
4. What about it?
5. Bronze Age obsession with "cleanliness."
6. Probably a good portion of the mundane historical information, but not much else.
7. No.
8. A great invention! Though I could do without the stoning of people who choose not to observe it.
>> You say there is no evidence of supernatural causes. But evidence does not come with a handy label attached to it identifying its cause.
B: Science works on the basis of the preponderance of the evidence. Various lines of evidence establish a model, or as you like to call it, an interpretation. A bone by itself does not mean much, but add to bone the geology (strata where it was found), morphology, chemistry (carbon dating), astronomy and other disciplines a clearer picture emerges of what that interpretation should be.
>> So with that interpretation, there will never be evidence of the supernatural from a scientific point of view.
B: I see a failure of imagination on your part. Let's say we take different groups of sick people and pray for healing. One group for muslim prayer, another for catholic prayer, another for Hindu prayer, etc...
Imagine we find that under controlled test conditions we find out that a statistically significant majority of the results indicate that catholic prayers are more effective than chance, the control groups or any other of the prayer groups.
Let's say we repeat the experiment and every time we find the same results. Catholic prayer works as opposed to no prayer or other types of religious prayers.
What would be the naturalistic explanation for this? What should the scientist do? What would his notes reflect?
>>He does not add the possibility in his lab notes or papers he submits to scientific journals, "maybe God caused it supernaturally"
B: Could it be because there is no reason for it? On my previous example a "maybe the catholic god causes these results supernaturally" lab note would be totally called for.
Let me ask you, should we still consider earthquakes and hurricanes acts of god? Should we think such events happen supernaturally by god? Why not? How do you draw the line on when to write on your notes that maybe god did it?
Could you tell me why would a scientist invoke a supernatural explanation on a phenomena when a natural explanation would suffice? This is how I draw the line (and the way everybody else in the world does it except when it comes to their religious beliefs).
(Occam's Razor)
>>So with that interpretation, there will never be evidence of the supernatural from a scientific point of view.
B: It is not because the interpretation prohibits it. It is because a natural explanation fits better with the evidence. I could imagine a multitude of scenarios where a supernatural explanation would be a better fit or even a requirement. But the fact is that such situations only exists in our heads (or in holy books). This is not the scientists (or the interpretation's) fault. Don't you think?
When one such a phenomena presents itself there is no doubt scientist would recognize a possible supernatural origin.
I find it telling how believers try to pin on science the sad reality that there is no compelling evidence indicating the existence of the supernatural. If the supernatural exists, identifying it should be no problem.
From another comment thread on this blog:
"I recommended Victor Stenger's book on the subject. He explains and gives examples on how "methodological naturalism can still be applied without implying any dogmatic attachment to metaphysical naturalism".
Methodological naturalism does not deny supernatural entities per se.
We just assume they do not exist since there still no evidence of such. If evidence came forward of such then accepting their existence would be no issue at all.
The fact that no evidence has come forward is a failure believers should explain. It has nothing to do with materialism at all."
Or with interpretation, I would add.
Well said Brigno. If the supernatural exists, and interacts with the natural world, then that interaction is a natural phenomenon.
My point is, scientists may be able to do this, but they don't. They just don't do it. Could they? Absolutely. Do they? Absolutely not. And if a scientist ever did such a study on prayer and found evidence, let's say of people who pray healing more quickly from their diseases than those who don't, you can be sure he would never write up and publish a paper in a respectable scientific journal saying that God answers prayer. His explanation would have to be more along the lines of the body-mind connection and how prayer gives a person hope which stimulates the immune system, or some natural explanation like that. If he tried to do otherwise, he would be laughed out of school and his paper would never be published
B: Really? You should read more scientific journals (or at least try to skim the science sections on newspapers).
For example:
Prayer 'no aid to heart patients'
Praying for patients undergoing heart operations does not improve their outcomes, a US study suggests.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-03/2006-03-30-voa60.cfm?CFID=78606899&CFTOKEN=31064252
Not only have scientists done this, but they have done it multiple times. Results have been published in various scientific publications (like the American Heart Journal). It is obvious that you have been misinformed. The supposed "absolute" bias science has is not as "absolute" as some have wrongly led you to believe.
Again, the problems is not that science is not willing to accept supernatural phenomena. The fact is that there is no evidence for the supernatural. If the supernatural existed, science would not have any problem recognizing it.
Saying that all scientists in the world are out there to deny the supernatural sounds more like a conspiracy theory than an accurate depiction of reality. You realize christian scientists exist, right? Are they in on the conspiracy too?
The fact is this. Imagine if a scientists finds proof of the supernatural. Can you imagine what would that mean? It would mean a automatic Nobel Prize, fame, fortune and an unlimited supply of research funding from all the religious organizations in the world. It would mean a whole new field of study has been opened!!! It would be a paradigm shift exponentially bigger than Einstein's. It would be mind blowing!!! A turning point in humanity!!
Do you think any scientist would close the door on such an untapped field of knowledge? Of course not.
I find it curious how the religious try to fault science with not considering the supernatural when the believers still have not shown any of it so that it could be considered. It is obvious where the blame faults, and it is not on science.
That is why I asked previously:
Should we still consider earthquakes and hurricanes acts of god? Should we think such events happen supernaturally by god? Why not? How do you draw the line on when to write on your notes that maybe god did it?
Could you tell me why would a scientist invoke a supernatural explanation on a phenomena when a natural explanation would suffice?
This is a very simple issue Author. If you want your ideas taken seriously, then expose them to falsification. Otherwise, expect ridicule.
"I don't think God would participate in this particular experiment."
B: How convenient. I would love to know what type of experiment a god would like to participate in.
Pinning the blame on science is misguided.
I think Zack has hit the nail on the head.
"Up till now, this had seemed like a civilized blog."
B: I wonder what made you think it isn't. Stating that ideas need to be subject to falsification to be useful does not seem, at least to me, to be an uncivilized comment.
Asking why one would need to consider supernatural belief to describe a phenomena when a natural explanation would suffice does not seem to be uncivilized either.
Asking for a third time how do you draw the line on when to write on your notes that maybe god did it is not a uncivilized request.
This is how science works. Hard questions are asked. Peer-review is tough. Evidence of your claims are examined. But overall there is respect for everyone involved. Respect that I think all bloggers and commenters that frequent this blog have shown.
Author:
I do not know how can belief be a choice. Can I choose to belief the sky is red instead of blue? In my case, belief is not subject to the will. Honestly, I do not understand how can you say it is.
Regarding evolution I would like to remind you that there are christians that accepted it as the fact it is. These people do not think god is a silly concept, still they recognize there is overwhelming amount of evidence that demonstrates the fact evolution is. How do you explain these people? How can you account for christians biologists (aka evolutionists in your view)?
It is obvious that taking god seriously (or not) has nothing to do with evolutionary science. I think that instead of falsely impugning other peoples (science minded christians and atheists) motives, you go out and get the evidence that will put the question of god's existence to rest.
If a god exists, there should be evidence for it. No amount of discussion is going to will a god into existence.
Have a nice day.
author@ptgbook.org, I encourage commenters to behave themselves here on my blog, and I have yet to encounter a commenter here who failed to do so. You may find yourself challenged, which is entirely within the boundaries of dialogue. It's up to you to decide if you wish to engage.
S: Author is absolutely correct - science only looks for natural explanations. Otherwise, it wouldn't be science, would it?
B: What does looking for supernatural explanations imply? Saying that a lack of a scientific answer (which in evolution does not apply btw) could mean a god could have done it? Is that it? What is the methodology? If something is really, really, really hard to understand god must have done it?
Again, is not that science does not want to consider the supernatural. Is that the supernatural has not yet provided something to consider. Isn't this obvious? If the supernatural exists, I would expected to look more like a miracle than a gap in our understanding. Don't you think?
Where is the supernatural bible-style? Where a the miracles that could be examined by science? Where is the water turning to wine or the seas being parted? The lack of the supernatural shines by its absence. Again, these are not questions for science to answer. These are questions for believers. Putting the blame on science because it is "close-minded" makes no sense (at least to me).
S: Definition of science....
B: The fact of knowing something; knowledge or understanding of a truth:; Knowledge gained through study or practice; mastery of a particular.
Science can include the supernatural (again methodological naturalism does not have to include metaphysical naturalism. I sound like a broken record by now...) if only some of it could be found to able to study it.
S: How many of these things have been attributed to supernatural causation in science?
B: None. You know why? Because to attribute something means to know what causes it. Again, not knowing is only evidence of not knowing. I think this is pretty obvious.
S: At the very least, one is frowned upon for seriously considering the possibility. Definitely an impediment to academic freedom.
B: The courts have clearly spoken. The scientific peer review process works. There is no scientific/political cabal persecuting ID people. ID stands or falls on its own merits.
If intelligence design has not passed muster it is not a failure of science. It is a failure of religion (which in reality is what ID really is).
S: A natural explanation may fit the evidence. Indeed, science requires a natural explanation. But interpretation often plays a huge role. Not everything is as black and white as you think. In fact, most of the time, things are various shades of grey
B: Like I said before: Could you tell me why would a scientist invoke a supernatural explanation on a phenomena when a natural explanation would suffice?
I would love to hear some of these grey areas you speak about. Could you give some examples? Hopefully they are more than gaps in current scientific knowledge.
S: I'll bet that he never invoked supernatural explanations to explain things that are not well understood
B: How would a supernatural explanation look like? I do not know so god did it? If there is the possibility of a natural explanation, why give up?
What if scientists gave up when they did not understand hurricanes and proclaimed god did it? What if scientists gave up when they did not understand how the body became ill (what we now call germ theory) and proclaimed god permitted it to be so?
The only reason for giving up the natural explanation process would be if EVIDENCE of supernatural attribution could be found. And that is the crux of problem. For believers really complex phenomena and a lack of naturalistic answers IS the evidence of the supernatural. I could not dissagree more. Especially since a look at history has shown us that such an approach has relegated god's works further and further from us.
Some have said that the more science advances, the less places god has been left with to hide in.
S:
What do you think, Brigno? Is Intelligent Design science, or not?
B: Has ID shown how could it be falsified? Has ID any predictive capabilities? Has anyone explained how the designer designs? Is there any physical evidence in support of the claims?
Author: This is how evolution is taught in the schools. And however you phrase it, evolution is taught as something that happened. I don't mean MIGHT have happened. DEFINITELY happened. What most non-scientists would call a "fact" or a "truth".
B: Because it is. Because it did happen. Because the geological, morphological, chemical, biological, molecular, astronomical, hydrological and many more other lines of inquiry all converge to support evolutionary theory. (My favorite line of evidence is atavisms. Pretty clear and simple)
Could something else than evolution make sense of all the mountains of evidence, analysis and studies of hundreds if not thousands of distinct scientific disciplines? At this point none have appeared and after more than 200 years since evolutionary theory appeared, it is highly unlikely.
A: By only looking at natural explanations, science limits itself.
B: As i explained before, this is not the case. Is not that science does not want to consider the supernatural. It is that the supernatural has yet produced something to be considered scientifically. We are all waiting for that day (but I am not holding my breath for it though) ;)
A: Religion can also study that issue, and science does not have the legal right to say that only science's conclusions are correct.
B:Would you permit Islamic creationism at school? How about alchemy? Or astrology? Who has the right to say such issues are incorrect?
The day the religious show evidence of their claims is the day such claims would be taught everywhere with no legal constraints. That day is not here yet. Obviously.
A: But millions of Americans do not think belief in God is ridiculous
B: And millions more believed the earth was flat in the not so distant past. How ridiculous something is does not depend on how many people believe it.
A: they rely on the Constitution to protect their rights to practice their beliefs and pass their beliefs on to their children
B: Right that is protected. You can do that in your house and in your church. The government has no right to do that for you in public school.
If you want to teach creationism in schools, let scientists teach evolutionary science in church. How does that sound?
The fact is that church and state are to be kept separate. Period.
A: When science teaches students that life came through natural causes only, students are not told that supernatural causes need not be considered because belief in God is ridiculous.
B: The reason supernatural causes are not taught is not because they are "ridiculous". Supernatural causes are not taught because they are non-existent at this point.
You should not confuse saying that a god may have done it with showing evidence that he did. They are not the same. The first one is what you have. The second one is what is needed.
A: The physical universe itself with the laws that govern the structure of the atom, the number of forces and the balance between those forces, the number of dimensions, etc. shows design and shows that design choices have been made.
B: In another thread in this blog I mentioned the typical confusion people have with the word law in reference to physics. There are 2 types of laws. Prescriptive and descriptive.
Law (regarding physics) is the term we use to describe how the universe behaves. The use of the word law as a description does not mean a law giver is needed. Do you really think inanimate matter follows prescriptive laws? Do yo believe atoms are aware of "laws" they should follow? Do you think atoms make a description to follow such laws? Of course not.
Again, natural law is a description of matter. Not a prescription for matter to follow. Again, descriptive laws do not require any law giver.
A: Many Christians have experienced answers to personal prayer that cannot be reasonably explained as coincidence.
B: Says who? Reality behaves in pretty unconceivable manners. Still, if something lacks an explanation that does not mean a god did it. I am not inclined to label my ignorance god. Why would you do that?
A:Science cannot explain that without a Designer. Also, science cannot explain the consciousness of the human mind.
B: What makes you think that postulating a designer solves the problem? Where does the proposed designer's order and complexity come from? What you are doing is trying to solve a supposed mystery with an even bigger mystery. If science does not answer, your religion just complicates it more.
Regarding consciousness i will say that science has a good track record filling our gaps in knowledge (a much better track record than religion btw). Again, not knowing something does not mean a god did it. You need positive proof of a claim. So far none has been provided.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin
A: And the Bible gives answers about the kind of world we live in that makes sense as no materialistic explanation does.
B: Really? I would love to read some examples. All I have seen points to the contrary.
A: it is not unreasonable to consider that, even if species came into existence through common descent over millions of years, God may have intervened to guide that process and produce new species through design, not random chance.
B: The thing is that evolution does not work with random chance only. Natural selection, mutation and random chance make godly intervention unnecessary. But still, if a god did intervene, we would need evidence of it before accepting it as a fact. Do you have any evidence of godly intervention? How would that even look like? Any evidence would change my mind (and scientists minds too).
A: thank you for helping to make my point that many evolutionists believe that the idea of God's existence is ridiculous
B: Your welcome (i think). Let me give you context. Quantum mechanics sounds and is extremely ridiculous, even more than creationism/intelligent-design. Still quantum mechanics is a fact while creationism is not.
Ridiculousness has nothing to do with anything. Understand now?
Feeling insulted (and metaphorically crying about it)does not help. Science does not work like that. Knowledge is not gained that way.
S: Author is absolutely correct - science only looks for natural explanations. Otherwise, it wouldn't be science, would it?
B: What does looking for supernatural explanations imply?...
That it IS NOT SCIENCE!
B: Again, is not that science does not want to consider the supernatural.
Wrong again.
B: Putting the blame on science because it is "close-minded" makes no sense (at least to me).
This is a statement that YOU repeatedly make. It has NOTHING to do with blaming science. Heck, you said in another post that many or perhaps most scientists are Christians. Do they put the blame on science and call it "close-minded"?
B: Science can include the supernatural
Scientists disagree with you. As I said, you will not find a scientist who invokes supernatural causation for anything they do not understand, or an article in a scientific journal proposing a supernatural cause as an explanation of the unknown.
B: (again methodological naturalism does not have to include metaphysical naturalism. I sound like a broken record by now...) if only some of it could be found to able to study it.
Very good Brigno. Now why don't you look up "methodological naturalism". The wikipedia has this to say:
"...methodological naturalism, is the epistemology and methodological principle which FORMS THE FOUNDATION FOR THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD. IT REQUIRES that SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESES ARE EXPLAINED AND TESTED BY REFERENCE TO NATURAL CAUSES AND EVENTS."
S: How many of these things have been attributed to supernatural causation in science?
B: None. You know why? Because to attribute something means to know what causes it. Again, not knowing is only evidence of not knowing. I think this is pretty obvious.
Precisely. What good would science be if it only provided the answers "God did it" for everything that was not understood? (which amounts to a quite a bit, btw)
S: At the very least, one is frowned upon for seriously considering the possibility. Definitely an impediment to academic freedom.
B: The courts have clearly spoken.
Yes, and sometimes using the voice of the ACLU, how convenient:
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/how_kenneth_miller_used_smokea_2.html
B: The scientific peer review process works.
B: There is no scientific/political cabal persecuting ID people.
I already listed some recent events, which clearly show otherwise.
B: Like I said before: Could you tell me why would a scientist invoke a supernatural explanation on a phenomena when a natural explanation would suffice?
They wouldn't. As I said repeatedly (my broken record), scientists do not invoke supernatural explanations for any phenomena, whether natural explanations suffice or not. What if a natural explanation does not suffice, such as the origin of life or the origin of consciousness? Are you suggesting that scientists can invoke the supernatural under these circumstances?
B: I would love to hear some of these grey areas you speak about. Could you give some examples? Hopefully they are more than gaps in current scientific knowledge.
Give me a break! Do you think we fully understand everything about every field of science? Just pick any area of science, any scientific journal. All have shades of grey, with understanding that continues to improve year after year, decade after decade. You are just being argumentative.
S: I'll bet that he never invoked supernatural explanations to explain things that are not well understood
B: How would a supernatural explanation look like? I do not know so god did it? If there is the possibility of a natural explanation, why give up?
Should science ever give up on a natural explanation? Didn't think so. Nuff said on this.
B: Some have said that the more science advances, the less places god has been left with to hide in.
That's funny, I see it as the opposite: The more science advances, the more evidence I see for a creator God.
S: What do you think, Brigno? Is Intelligent Design science, or not?
B: Has ID shown how could it be falsified? Has ID any predictive capabilities? Has anyone explained how the designer designs? Is there any physical evidence in support of the claims?
http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2008-12-29T13_46_08-08_00
http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2008-12-31T15_58_09-08_00
Author: This is how evolution is taught in the schools. And however you phrase it, evolution is taught as something that happened. I don't mean MIGHT have happened. DEFINITELY happened. What most non-scientists would call a "fact" or a "truth".
B: Because it is. Because it did happen.
Sure evolution happened, no argument here. But to what extent? The farther down the family tree you go, the weaker the evidence in support of a common ancestor, and of course, zero evidence for abiogenesis. Perhaps it all started with design, with the designer creating the basic families or orders or whatever, and let evolutionary processes take over from there.
B: Because the geological, morphological, chemical, biological, molecular, astronomical, hydrological and many more other lines of inquiry all converge to support evolutionary theory.
What an exagerration. That's funny that you include geological, astronomical, hydrological, as they have nothing to do with evolutionary theory. Perhaps you meant paleontological rather than geological. Even the chemical does not apply. You really only have biological and some molecular biological.
B: Could something else than evolution make sense of all the mountains of evidence, analysis and studies of hundreds if not thousands of distinct scientific disciplines?
Yes, my scenario above makes more sense.
Wow, are there really thousands of distinct scientific disciplines??
A:Science cannot explain that without a Designer. Also, science cannot explain the consciousness of the human mind.
B: What makes you think that postulating a designer solves the problem? Where does the proposed designer's order and complexity come from? What you are doing is trying to solve a supposed mystery with an even bigger mystery. If science does not answer, your religion just complicates it more.
Where did the universe come from?
S: That it IS NOT SCIENCE!
B: Actually if such a thing as the supernatural existed, it would be a scientific question. A universe where a god and miracles exist is totally different from one where such phenomena do not. I think this is pretty obvious.
B: Again, is not that science does not want to consider the supernatural.
S: Wrong again.
B: You are twice as wrong. LOL!!!
S: Scientists disagree with you. As I said, you will not find a scientist who invokes supernatural causation for anything they do not understand
B: Why would they? Does not having an explanation means the supernatural is the solution. I am sorry but to establish something we mus have positive proof of what we are trying to establish. Again, this is obvious. There is such a thing as NOT KNOWING. You realize this, right?
S: or an article in a scientific journal proposing a supernatural cause as an explanation of the unknown.
B: Maybe because no evidence of such supernatural causes has been found. Maybe this explains why have yet to see:
-A peer-reviewed paper by Dembski, Wells, Nelson or Meyer.
-a\A single peer-reviewed article offering either a) evidence for design, b) a method to unambiguously detect design, or c) a theory of how the Designer did the designing.
-An article by Nelson & Dembski on problems with common descent.
(http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/01/john-lynch-revi.html)
S: Now why don't you look up "methodological naturalism".
B: I have. Sadly you did not read the entire entry that clearly stated:
"Methodological naturalism can be contrasted with metaphysical naturalism or ontological naturalism, which refers to the metaphysical belief that the natural world (i.e. the universe) is all that exists and, therefore, nothing supernatural exists".
Stephen, I suggest you try to read the whole thing first before quoting from it.
Will continue with more later...
S: Precisely. What good would science be if it only provided the answers "God did it" for everything.
B: It would be the same as religion, not good at explaining anything.
S: Yes, and sometimes using the voice of the ACLU.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/how_kenneth_miller_used_smokea_2.html
B: Really? Have you read Miller's take on the link you just gave?. You will find it highly enlightening. It can be found on the discover magazine website here:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/01/02/smoke-and-mirrors-whales-and-lampreys-a-guest-post-by-ken-miller/
Stephen, the discovery institute has no credibility. Hopefully the link I provided you will let you realize this.
S: I already listed some recent events, which clearly show otherwise.
B: I've listed contrary examples that show how the ID persecution complex has no merit.
S: What if a natural explanation does not suffice, such as the origin of life or the origin of consciousness? Are you suggesting that scientists can invoke the supernatural under these circumstances?
Sure they could, if any evidence of the supernatural could be shown (read COMPLETE the wikipedia entry on methodological naturalism for details). But until any evidence (either for natural or supernatural explanations) appears, I am fine with not knowing.
S: Give me a break! Do you think we fully understand everything about every field of science? Just pick any area of science, any scientific journal. All have shades of grey, with understanding that continues to improve year after year, decade after decade. You are just being argumentative.
B: Or course not!! And I do not need to either. A progressive understanding of the universe is much more than the religious non-answers. Again, if god (or the supernatural) hides in the gray areas then he is quickly running out of hiding space.
S: Should science ever give up on a natural explanation? Didn't think so. Nuff said on this.
B: YES!!! If evidence of the supernatural could be shown to exist. You seem to forget this key point all the time. You cannot claim nothing as if it were something.
S: That's funny, I see it as the opposite: The more science advances, the more evidence I see for a creator God.
B: A deist god, maybe. But a supernatural interventionist creator god? Not really.
S: Sure evolution happened, no argument here. But to what extent? The farther down the family tree you go, the weaker the evidence in support of a common ancestor, and of course, zero evidence for abiogenesis. Perhaps it all started with design, with the designer creating the basic families or orders or whatever, and let evolutionary processes take over from there.
B: You realize that the bible conception of god, sin and redemption in Jesus would make no sense in such a framework, right?
The following is a great link from none other than Nature magazine reagarding evolution.
http://www.nature.com/nature/newspdf/evolutiongems.pdf
Did a designer (god? advanced alien race? natural chemical processes?) start life in our planet? We do not know. And until we know, the best option is to accept our ignorance in stride. Making stuff up does not help or advance our knowledge. Specially since a complex sentient designer would still be required to be explained anyway if it existed.
S:What an exagerration. That's funny that you include geological, astronomical, hydrological, as they have nothing to do with evolutionary theory. Perhaps you meant paleontological rather than geological. Even the chemical does not apply. You really only have biological and some molecular biological.
B: You need to read more science and less Discovery Institute.
This is what I meant with geology:
Where Geology Fits in Evolution
Geology matters because it produces evidence bearing on evolutionary theory.
* Layers of rock lie one above another, amounting to dozens of kilometers in total thickness. The sheer volume of rock exposed in the Earth's crust shows that the Earth is extremely old, because rocks form very slowly. Modern dating techniques confirm this 18th-century insight.
* Fossils appear in a consistent sequence in that pile of rock--trilobites always come below dinosaurs, which always come below horses. The history of life is a consistent and extremely long story, one that has been studied since the 19th century.
* The pattern of changes in fossil species—their evolution over time—is fully compatible with the arrangement of living species. Living things today are the growing tips of a tree of life that has existed for billions of years. Genetic research in the 20th century has borne out this conclusion in molecular detail.
(http://geology.about.com/od/evolution/a/aa_nutshel_evol.htm)
I can provide examples for the other supposed "exagerations" if requested.
S: Yes, my scenario above makes more sense.
B: Really? Any peer-reviews for such an scenario you could point me too?
S: Wow, are there really thousands of distinct scientific disciplines??
B: Yes they are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_academic_disciplines
S: Where did the universe come from?
B: I do not know. For all I know it could have always been in some form. The key phrase is "I do not know". And until an evidence backed explanation surfaces I will not feel one bit inclined to label my ignorance "god". Neither should you.
For the Rock Record: Geologists on Intelligent Design.
Promises to be an interesting read.
http://diagenesis.blogspot.com/2009/01/geologists-on-intelligent-design.html
How Did Life Begin? RNA That Replicates Itself Indefinitely Developed For First Time
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090109173205.htm
One of these is called the RNA world hypothesis that postulates that RNA came before DNA. While this hypothesis has many nice features one sticking point is that in existing life RNA is dependent on DNA for performing roles such as building proteins.
Now a pair of Scripps Research Institute scientists have for the first time synthesised RNA enzymes that can replicate themselves without the help of any proteins or other cellular components, and the process proceeds indefinitely. This research shows that a simpler RNA based life is possible
And once you’ve got replication happening then Darwinian evolution starts.
-Another death blow to ID. Another gap in human knowledge that is rapidly closing. The ID god is quickly losing its supposed relevance. For all the complexity of the cell, it is clearly coming into focus that such is too a result of a gradual evolutionary process. Sweet.
Such is the explanatory power of science.
B: There is such a thing as NOT KNOWING. You realize this, right?
Of course.
S: Now why don't you look up "methodological naturalism".
B: I have. Sadly you did not read the entire entry that clearly stated:
"Methodological naturalism can be contrasted with metaphysical naturalism or ontological naturalism, which refers to the metaphysical belief that the natural world (i.e. the universe) is all that exists and, therefore, nothing supernatural exists".
B: Stephen, I suggest you try to read the whole thing first before quoting from it.
Uh, yes, I actually read the whole entry. I didn't feel it was necessary to comment on the rest of it since it has already been well established that you are a metaphysical naturalist. Perhaps you are the one who needs to reflect on the entire entry. The following quote, taken from the last section of the complete wikipedia entry that you recommended for me, might be helpful to you:
"Steven Schafersman contends methodological naturalism is "the adoption or assumption of philosophical naturalism within scientific method with or without fully accepting or believing it … science is not metaphysical and does not depend on the ultimate truth of any metaphysics for its success (although science does have metaphysical implications), but methodological naturalism must be adopted as a strategy or working hypothesis for science to succeed...
"This definition rules out recourse to the supernatural. Pennock contends that as supernatural agents and powers "are above and beyond the natural world and its agents and powers" and "are not constrained by natural laws", only logical impossibilities constrain what a supernatural agent could not do, and "If we could apply natural knowledge to understand supernatural powers, then, by definition, they would not be supernatural". As the supernatural is necessarily a mystery to us, it can provide no grounds on which to judge scientific models. "Experimentation requires observation and control of the variables … But by definition we have no control over supernatural entities or forces." Allowing science to appeal to untestable supernatural powers would make the scientist's task meaningless, undermining the discipline that allows science to make progress, and "would be as profoundly unsatisfying as the ancient Greek playwright's reliance upon the deus ex machina to extract his hero from a difficult predicament."
"Naturalism of this sort says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of the supernatural which by this definition is beyond natural testing. Other philosophers of science hold that some supernatural explanations might be testable in principle, but are so unlikely, given past results, that resources should not be wasted exploring them. Either way, their rejection is only a practical matter, so it is possible to be a methodological naturalist and an ontological supernaturalist at the same time. For example, while natural scientists follow methodological naturalism in their scientific work, they may also believe in God (ontological supernaturalism), or they may be metaphysical naturalists and therefore atheists. This position does not preclude knowledge that derives from the study of what is hitherto considered supernatural, but considers that if such a phenomenon can be scientifically examined and explained naturally, it, then, by definition, ceases to be supernatural."
B: Stephen, the discovery institute has no credibility. Hopefully the link I provided you will let you realize this.
Thanks for the rebuttal article, I do prefer to hear BOTH both sides of a story. Do you?
I try not to regard any side as having no credibility, or to dismiss another point of view based solely on my philosophical position. I try to evaluate arguments made on both sides, and I think both sides (in general) have valid points to make. Even those of Ken Miller, who with one side of his mouth claims to believe in God and yet with the other attacks ID, a position I find to be indefensible.
S: I already listed some recent events, which clearly show otherwise.
B: I've listed contrary examples that show how the ID persecution complex has no merit.
Contrary examples? Where? If you mean the NCSE's response to Expelled, I have already rebutted them in our previous discussion. The NCSE response may have had some merit, but not much.
Have you read "Slaughter of the Dissidents"? It contains more examples.
Did you ever take any science classes in college? I took Genetics. The professor of that class was a militant athiest, constantly preaching against the existence of God almost every other lecture. I don't care what his position was, so long as he didn't penalize me for mine. The point is, he had no regard or respect for anyone who believes in a god. Hopefully, he never penalized anyone for it if he knew, but when one has feelings that are that strong (about anything), discrimination is a very realistic possibility. I have heard about a couple of professors from other institutions who have the stance that a scientist should have their degree denied or rescinded for having a belief in a god. Do you agree with that position?
S: Sure evolution happened, no argument here. But to what extent? The farther down the family tree you go, the weaker the evidence in support of a common ancestor, and of course, zero evidence for abiogenesis. Perhaps it all started with design, with the designer creating the basic families or orders or whatever, and let evolutionary processes take over from there.
B: You realize that the bible conception of god, sin and redemption in Jesus would make no sense in such a framework, right?
Abiogenesis makes no sense. Evolution of consciousness makes no sense. There are many things about life that evolution is inadequate to explain. Dawkin's feeble explanation for the evolution of flight comes to mind. Therefore, I have no problem at all making sense out of the framework I suggested. It isn't perfect, but to me it makes the MOST sense.
B: This is what I meant with geology:
Where Geology Fits in Evolution...
Thanks for the articles. The first part is about geology, and it does not have anything to do with evolutionary theory. The latter two parts are really about paleontology (which I mentioned above), not geology.
B: I can provide examples for the other supposed "exagerations" if requested.
Well, you kind of struck out on the geological, but sure, let's see for instance the astronomical.
S: Wow, are there really thousands of distinct scientific disciplines??
B: Yes they are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_academic_disciplines
Wow, that is quite a few!
S: Where did the universe come from?
B: I do not know. For all I know it could have always been in some form.
For all I know God has always existed.
B: The key phrase is "I do not know". And until an evidence backed explanation surfaces I will not feel one bit inclined to label my ignorance "god". Neither should you.
Sounds good.
B: Now a pair of Scripps Research Institute scientists have for the first time synthesised RNA enzymes that can replicate themselves without the help of any proteins or other cellular components...
Thanks for the very interesting article. Unfortunately you failed to notice that the synthesis of these RNA enzymes REQUIRED INTELLIGENCE!
B: And once you’ve got replication happening then Darwinian evolution starts...
Yet, as I mentioned in our previous discussion on this topic a few months ago, you are still light years away from even the simplest living cell.
-Another death blow to ID.
Not even close. Keep dreaming.
B: Another gap in human knowledge that is rapidly closing...
...with millions of gaps more to go.
B: The ID god is quickly losing its supposed relevance. For all the complexity of the cell, it is clearly coming into focus that such is too a result of a gradual evolutionary process. Sweet.
If you think this is close, you have a great deal more to learn about the cell.
Heck, scientists still don't know how single-cells evolved into multicellular organisms (a much smaller gap than above):
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/02/complexity-theo.html
"some scientists say that the theory of evolution is due for a revision...But a growing number of scientists do say that neo-Darwinian evolution doesn't explain certain jumps in biological complexity: from single-celled to multicellular organisms, from single organisms to entire communities."
So now they are suggesting there is some networked, self-organizing phenomenon that accounts for the increased complexity. Which is fine, keep researching, I say. The point is, we still do not know.
B: Such is the explanatory power of science.
Yes, science can be a very useful tool. But scientists can still be wrong.
S:
Thanks for the very interesting article. Unfortunately you failed to notice that the synthesis of these RNA enzymes REQUIRED INTELLIGENCE!
B: The fact is that science is knocking on the door of life. Which is more than what the ID folk have to show, which is nothing.
FYI the perpetual self replicating RNA enzymes where developed through a naturally selective process. Unintelligent intelligence.
See:
Most of the time the replicating enzymes would breed true, but on occasion an enzyme would make a mistake by binding one of the subunits from one of the other replicating enzymes. When such "mutations" occurred, the resulting recombinant enzymes also were capable of sustained replication, with the most fit replicators growing in number to dominate the mixture. "To me that's actually the biggest result," says Joyce.
The research shows that the system can sustain molecular information, a form of heritability, and give rise to variations of itself in a way akin to Darwinian evolution. So, says Lincoln, "What we have is non-living, but we've been able to show that it has some life-like properties, and that was extremely interesting."
B: It is clear that stating that mutation degrades "information" (whatever that means since ID people have still not defined what constitutes information or how to detect it yet) is just plain wrong. Science is continually progressing endeavor.
Any word on the latest ID discoveries?
S:
For all I know God has always existed.
B: The difference is that I can easily show you that the universe exists and that it is real, you on the other hand cannot do the same with god, any god. The positions are not equivalent. Not by a long shot. The "god belief" is vastly inferior/improbable.
S: I didn't feel it was necessary to comment on the rest of it since it has already been well established that you are a metaphysical naturalist.
B: Well, establishing and stating are two different things. I know it is easier to label me a metaphysical naturalist (even though I am not one) and argue from that position than to recognize I am methodological naturalist and accept that the "closed minded" argument has no merit.
S: Thanks for the rebuttal article, I do prefer to hear BOTH both sides of a story. Do you?
B: Sure. But when you read Miller's rebuttal it is obvious the ID people at the Discovery Institute are trying to deceive people on purpose. Their latest attempts are just more examples of the whole "Wedge Document" and "cdesign proponentsists" mentality that no honest person would qualify as science.
That is why I say the discovery institute has no credibility. I'm just stating fact.
S: Even those of Ken Miller, who with one side of his mouth claims to believe in God and yet with the other attacks ID, a position I find to be indefensible.
B: I only find his evidence-less positions indefensible. The rest I have no problems with.
S: Contrary examples? Where?
B: Ill give you one. Guillermo Gonzalez.
http://www.iowascience.org/?p=37
Claimed persecution but the fact is he was denied tenure because he did not have the qualifications for it.
All the supposed persecutions of ID scientists by the "evolutionary cabal" is nothing more than propaganda. It is easier to try and turn public opinion than to produce evidence to support ID claims.
S: Did you ever take any science classes in college?
B: Actually, I took science classes in an Adventist College. As you can imagine the explanations given on evolution were totally wrong (I found out that latter after I graduated).
If a non-adventist tried to ask a question that sounded in any way like it would support evolution, the question was ridiculed and dismissed. It is obvious that anyone who did not agree with creationism would not be seen in a good light.
The little I know about science is product of my own personal reading after college. Truth be told, adventist education regarding biological science was more about adventist than about education.
S: I have heard about a couple of professors from other institutions who have the stance that a scientist should have their degree denied or rescinded for having a belief in a god. Do you agree with that position?
B: No. As long as their belief in gods does not affect the teaching of science. How would you feel if a scientologist (which deny the existence of mental illnesses) was given a tenured teaching job at a psychiatric medicine school promoting his religiously based views on mental health?
S: Abiogenesis makes no sense. Evolution of consciousness makes no sense.
B: Actually it does. The fact that RNA molecules can replicate and mutate by themselves, even though the are non-living molecules, points towards abiogenesis. At this point it is not about sense but about fact.
Does quantum mechanics makes sense? No. But it is true. Just because something makes sense to you does not mean it is right.
It makes sense to treat the earth as flat when one builds a house. But fact is that it is round.
Same thing with consciousness or flight. You have to go where the evidence leads you even if it does not make sense with your religiously preconceived notions about the universe.
More latter....
Again, thanks for your responses.
S: Yet, as I mentioned in our previous discussion on this topic a few months ago, you are still light years away from even the simplest living cell.
B: And your point is? Just because no one will observe Pluto do an orbit around the sun (1 plutonian year = 248.09 earth years, Pluto was discovered in 1930) does not mean it will never do it or that it has never done it.
It seems that your goalpost is defined as putting some chemicals in a vat and expecting a Eukaryote cell to spontaneously emerge. If that is the case I can tell you that you will never be satisfied.
(And maybe not even that since some may try to claim that the act of putting the chemicals in a vat is an act of intelligent design. With religion the goalpost never stops moving)
Denying science because it does not fulfill an unreasonable expectation does not mean it has failed or that no progress is being made.
Self replicating mutating chemicals where a laughable proposition to creationists a week ago. They are not so laughable now.
S:Not even close. Keep dreaming.
B: I was wide awake when a catholic-conservative-Bush appointed-federal judge ruled otherwise. I he can get it, I feel more people will.
S: If you think this is close, you have a great deal more to learn about the cell.
B: I don't think it is closed. Is just that the "god did it" argument (ID redux)has not brought anything to the table.
Again, can anyone mention the latest ID discovery?
The discovery institute may be the most ironic name in history.
S:"some scientists say that the theory of evolution is due for a revision..."
B: I find interesting what came after the 3 dots.
The article in context:
Some scientists say that the theory of evolution is due for a revision. Not a religiously inspired revision -- intelligent designers need not apply. Nobody suggests that genetic mutation and natural selection aren't responsible for the evolution of birds from reptiles or humans from tree-swingers.
S: Yes, science can be a very useful tool. But scientists can still be wrong.
B: True. But it is science itself (not religion) that makes the necessary corrections.
The contrast which religious thought (which can never be falsified) is striking.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/01/chemical_replicators.php
Now you might be saying, "But these are designed enzymes, created by a couple of intelligent scientists!" Not quite. They started with a very rough sequence, one that inefficiently catalyzed an A + B → E sort of reaction, but that not only worked slowly, but also produced faulty products that eventually killed the reaction after a few cycles. Then they tweaked it to form a minus-strand enzyme, and then they subjected both the plus and minus strand forms to — natural selection! They made copies with mutagenic PCR (so they had a range of random variants), ran it through several cycles of in vitro selection for more efficient forms, and ended up with two RNA enzymes that were good at building copies of each other.
- Great link.
B: It is clear that stating that mutation degrades "information" ... is just plain wrong.
Not true. The majority of mutations result in decreased function (as a result of injecting misinformation or deleting information, information needed to carry out the prescribed function), or are at best neutral.
S: For all I know God has always existed.
B: The difference is that I can easily show you that the universe exists and that it is real, you on the other hand cannot do the same with god, any god. The positions are not equivalent. Not by a long shot. The "god belief" is vastly inferior/improbable.
This is exactly the type of statement a metaphysical naturalist would make. If you were truly a methodological naturalist, you would not dismiss the "god belief" or design argument so eagerly.
S: Thanks for the rebuttal article, I do prefer to hear BOTH both sides of a story. Do you?
B: Sure. But when you read Miller's rebuttal it is obvious the ID people at the Discovery Institute are trying to deceive people on purpose...
You have to keep in mind that everyone has their own point of view, and will present things in such a way as to support their case. I did not get the sense from these articles that either party was trying to deceive people. They were just having a debate, like you and I. I think Luskin is a lawyer, and so he is probably not an expert on the blood clotting cascade and may have been wrong on some of his facts. That doesn't mean he was lying. Do you think that everything the DI says is a lie? Perhaps I should dismiss everything Ken Miller says since he claims to be a Roman Catholic yet he opposes ID?
S: Contrary examples? Where?
B: Ill give you one. Guillermo Gonzalez.
http://www.iowascience.org/?p=37
B: Claimed persecution but the fact is he was denied tenure because he did not have the qualifications for it.
That is incorrect, qualifications had little or nothing to do with it, as he had a very respectable publication record. As for merit, I have read mixed reports on his publication and funding record while at ISU. The article you provided states that the faculty opposed Gonzales doing research on ID because they deemed it was not science and they did not want him spending his time on that. I do not know on what grounds they based their conclusions on, but if that is the consensus view of ID, then of course anybody wanting to do scientific research on ID will face opposition. Which would seem to support that the alleged persecution of ID scientists has some merit.
B: All the supposed persecutions of ID scientists by the "evolutionary cabal" is nothing more than propaganda. It is easier to try and turn public opinion than to produce evidence to support ID claims.
It is difficult to produce evidence to support ID hypotheses when one faces opposition for researching it in the first place. It is a vicious cycle.
B: The little I know about science is product of my own personal reading after college. Truth be told, adventist education regarding biological science was more about adventist than about education.
Sorry to hear that.
S: I have heard about a couple of professors from other institutions who have the stance that a scientist should have their degree denied or rescinded for having a belief in a god. Do you agree with that position?
B: No. As long as their belief in gods does not affect the teaching of science. How would you feel if a scientologist (which deny the existence of mental illnesses) was given a tenured teaching job at a psychiatric medicine school promoting his religiously based views on mental health?
Not the same thing. If you think that teaching evidences supporting design is the same as teaching religion, you are one paranoid atheist. Religion need not have anything to do with it. Are you also opposed to teaching the challenges (or dare I say, "weaknesses") to the theory of evolution in public schools?
S: Abiogenesis makes no sense...
B: Actually it does. The fact that RNA molecules can replicate and mutate by themselves, even though the are non-living molecules, points towards abiogenesis. At this point it is not about sense but about fact.
Not so fast. This was indeed a very fascinating and clever experiment and I am in no way trying to diminish what was accomplished in the experiment itself... only the bold claims coming from people like yourself. Additional key FACTS need to be pointed out and considered before you go off racing to your conclusions:
1) First of all, the initial sequences for the ribozymes was chosen based on what was known to have catalytic activity, i.e. intelligent design. Without this head start, the experiment is dead.
2) The RNA molecules did not merely replicate themselves as if from scratch or from a pool of activated ribonucleotides. What they did was ligate (connect) two shorter, complementary strands of RNA, which were already provided, and prepared based on sequences that would be complementary to the ribozymes. Without these intelligently designed substrates, the experiment is dead.
3) The copies that were made were not of itself (say ribozyme E), but of another ribozyme (say E'), which, in turn, took two other substrates (also already prepared and provided) to make ribozyme E. In short, ribozyme E bound substrates A' and B' together to form E', and E' in turn, bound A and B together to form E. It is a really cool experiment. However, E and E' are each nearly 70 nucleotides long. To generate a working E with conveniently available activated substrates A' and B' that are close enough to generate a working E' requires a series of highly improbably events, which, when taken together, is an extremely improbable event.
4) E and E' will not live long without a mechanism or means for generating those substrates. What is needed is a mechanism to self-replicate from simpler ribonucleotide building blocks instead of substrates containing highly improbable sequences of ribonucleotides that are incapable of generating themselves.
5) Generating sufficient ribonucleotide building blocks (let alone activated ribonucleotides) is problematic.
6) Even with plentiful building blocks and substrates, you are still not even close to the DNA -> RNA -> protein paradigm, let alone a simple cell.
So, I'm sorry to rain on your parade, Brigno, but the evidence definitely does NOT point to abiogenesis. As PZ Meyers said in the web page you provided, "it's a demonstration of the feasibility of ONE PART of the process of chemical evolution", i.e. a proof of concept. Nothing more. Progress? Yes. Answer to the origin of life question? Definitely not. I already summarized in a previous post a few months ago some of the difficulties associated with producing a living cell. Come back when scientists come up with (i.e. design and build) an efficient self-replicating RNA from simpler precursors and we'll chat again. Until then, you should go back to the "I don't know" position.
B: Same thing with consciousness or flight. You have to go where the evidence leads you even if it does not make sense with your religiously preconceived notions about the universe.
Agreed. I know it is hard to swallow, but so far all the evidence for the origin of life still points to design.
S: Yet, as I mentioned in our previous discussion on this topic a few months ago, you are still light years away from even the simplest living cell.
B: And your point is?...
My point is you are nowhere close to proclaiming death blows to ID, or to justifying that gradual evolutionary processes can account for the complexity of the cell. Just because scientists designed and used natural selection to improve an RNA ligation reaction doesn't mean it can explain life.
B: It seems that your goalpost is defined as putting some chemicals in a vat and expecting a Eukaryote cell to spontaneously emerge. If that is the case I can tell you that you will never be satisfied.
Not a eukaryote, but a prokaryote would suffice! ;)
Seriously though, at the very least it must be demonstrated that the DNA -> RNA -> protein paradigm could result due strictly to natural causes. A difficult task to say the least. But I do agree, I will never be satisfied. Not because of me moving my goalposts, but because the goalposts will not be reached.
S:"some scientists say that the theory of evolution is due for a revision..."
B: I find interesting what came after the 3 dots. The article in context:
"Some scientists say that the theory of evolution is due for a revision. Not a religiously inspired revision -- intelligent designers need not apply...
Of course, as I have argued at length, science will never yield to a "religiously inspired revision", so that was not the point. The point, which you seemed to miss, was that the darwinian processes (RM+NS) that you place so much faith, er I mean, stock in, is becoming an unsatisfactory explanation for some of the scientists studying these problems.
B: Again, thanks for your responses.
Thank you for yours.
S: The majority of mutations result in decreased function
B: The point is that mutation and natural selection drive evolution. This is a fact. We have enough useful mutations to account for all the diversity we see around us. That was my point.
S: This is exactly the type of statement a metaphysical naturalist would make. If you were truly a methodological naturalist, you would not dismiss the "god belief" or design argument so eagerly.
B: I do not see how this comment answers, refutes or clarifies the point I made. Labeling me as "X" answers nothing.
S: I did not get the sense from these articles that either party was trying to deceive people.
B: The judge in the Dover trail, a Bush appointed, conservative judge by the way, saw it for what it was. I agree with the evidence, I agree with the judge, I agree with the rebuttal. The Discovery Institute as an institution has no credibility. (More on this latter)
S: I think Luskin is a lawyer, and so he is probably not an expert on the blood clotting cascade and may have been wrong on some of his facts
B: Maybe he should stick to the things he has expertise on.
S: That doesn't mean he was lying.
B: Well, he could be sincerely making a fool out of himself without knowing. I doubt it but that is a question only Luskin knows the definite answer to.
S: Do you think that everything the DI says is a lie?
B: When I read the following:
"Father's [Moon's] words, my studies, and my prayers convinced me that I should devote my life to destroying Darwinism, just as many of my fellow Unificationists had already devoted their lives to destroying Marxism. When Father chose me to enter a PhD program in 1978, I welcomed the opportunity to prepare myself for battle."
-Jonathan Wells
The least i can say is that there is no intellectual honesty whatsoever.
S: That is incorrect, qualifications had little or nothing to do with it
B: "None of his graduate students had completed their programs, and he had not received grants from the National Science Foundation or NASA, the major funders of astronomical research.
Declining scientific productivity and the reasons for that decline would be fair points to consider.” Tenure denial is not rare; a third of the applicants in Gonzalez’s department over the last decade were denied tenure."
B: The evidence speaks for itself.
S: It is difficult to produce evidence to support ID hypotheses when one faces opposition for researching it in the first place. It is a vicious cycle.
B: It obvious you do not understand how the peer review process works. Any new idea in science WILL FACE OPPOSITION. That is the WHOLE POINT!!! It is only tested and proven ideas that make it, the ones that are shown to work.
Relativity faced fierce opposition when it came out. Same thing with evolution. The expanding universe idea? Opposed from the start. Heck, mention a scientific discipline and you will find opposition until solid, repeatable, falsifiable evidence is presented. And that is just what we want to ensure it is FACT.
The fact is that ID wants to avoid the peer review process and go to directly to the media, school boards and courts to try and make the case it will not make in the lab or in the field.
S: Not the same thing. If you think that teaching evidences supporting design is the same as teaching religion, you are one paranoid atheist. Religion need not have anything to do with it.
B: Come on...spare me the whole "ID is not religion" line.
From the Discovery Institute Wedge Document:
"The social consequences of materialism have been devastating. As symptoms, those consequences are certainly worth treating. However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism. This is precisely our strategy. If we view the predominant materialistic science as a giant tree, our strategy is intended to function as a "wedge" that, while relatively small, can split the trunk when applied at its weakest points. The very beginning of this strategy, the "thin edge of the wedge," was Phillip Johnson's critique of Darwinism begun in 1991 in Darwinism on Trial, and continued in Reason in the Balance and Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds. Michael Behe's highly successful Darwin's Black Box followed Johnson's work. We are building on this momentum, broadening the wedge with a positive scientific alternative to materialistic scientific theories, which has come to be called the theory of intelligent design (ID). Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions."
From the Dover case ruling:
"For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child" (page 24 Dover Decision)
"A significant aspect of the IDM [intelligent design movement] is that despite Defendants’ protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity." (page 26)
"The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism" (page 31)
"The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory." (page 43)
"Accordingly, we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board’s real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause." (page 132)
B: The reason you may think i could be a paranoid atheist may be because you could be one uninformed "cdesign proponentsist" (Gooogle "cdesign proponentsists", btw. See what comes up.)
S: Are you also opposed to teaching the challenges (or dare I say, "weaknesses") to the theory of evolution in public schools?
B: "ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID." (page 89)
Fact is there is no scientific challenges or controversy regarding the validity of evolution.
S: Progress? Yes. Answer to the origin of life question? Definitely not.
B: I'll take my chances with progress as opposed to nothing at all (which is what ID has to show for all its non-existent research). Thanks. :)
S: so far all the evidence for the origin of life still points to design.
B: Natural evolutionary design.
S: at the very least it must be demonstrated that the DNA -> RNA -> protein paradigm could result due strictly to natural causes. A difficult task to say the least. But I do agree, I will never be satisfied. Not because of me moving my goalposts, but because the goalposts will not be reached.
B: "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
-Charles Darwin
S: Of course, as I have argued at length, science will never yield to a "religiously inspired revision"
B: And I have argued at length that in reality science will never yield to a "evidence-lacking revision" no matter if it is religiously inspired or not.
S: The point, which you seemed to miss, was that the darwinian processes (RM+NS) that you place so much faith, er I mean, stock in, is becoming an unsatisfactory explanation for some of the scientists studying these problems.
B: If the unsatisfied "scientists" are Jonathan Wells, Michael Behe, Luskin or William Dembski, then Darwinian evolution faces no real challenge nor it is unsatisfactory at all.
Why Evolution is True, by Jerry A. Coyne.
Just started reading it yesterday. Awesome book. Great for people with no biology major background like me.
Highly recommended.
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